Peace talks for Continent 65.

Ah right, and as for peace terms I want to return to status quo ante bellum and to put limits on military presence on the continent. I am native there but I can promise not to put my or fleets armies near the border and would like the same from Birgeria.

So, I would just like to give my view of the background situation. It differs a little from Tyrantia's.

After I finished dividing up my home continent with Birgeria I went on a bit of an expansionist spree and occupied parts of several newer continents. One of these was continent 65. I was contacted by Lustria when I landed asking me to make a Non-Aggression Pact with White Base, and make an agreement on the continent split with him. We came to such an agreement, and we took about half of the main continent each (the northern island had not spawned in yet). My territory on the mainland constituted roughly 45 tiles.

When the northern island spawned in, I moved across to it and so did White Base. I was under the assumption we were continuing the 2-way split of 65, and had not been told otherwise. I noticed units were being built on the eastern side of the island, but I did not think further upon this as I was busy taking more tiles.

I was then contacted by Tyrantia, with him asking me to leave him the tiles of Plimysu. I do not recall whether I responded to him or not (maybe he can fill you in here?) but I did not intend to leave that land to him because, as far as I was concerned, the continent was still being split 2 ways under the agreement I had made with White Base and Lustria. Thus, I continued taking the tiles on the island, and when I reached the supply base with the unit on it (which I assumed to be Plimysu's, as the unit in it had not advanced to the left to take the remainder of Plimysu's land, but I did not really care whether it was his or Tyrantia's), I attacked it.

Looking back, I should have checked whether Tyrantia was in the WPO, but I had figured if there was a change to the 2-way split plan I would have been contacted. I had assumed Tyrantia was not part of the WPO, as I had not been contacted about this.

Needless to say, I was somewhat surprised when I was attacked by White Base the following turn. I was about to contact Arstotzka about this NAP-infraction (as vDiplomacy had a non-aggression pact with the WPO at this point) when I received a message from Lustria telling me I had broken the NAP and needed to explain my actions. I was surprised, but then found that Tyrantia had been WPO and I had indeed broken the NAP. I immediately contacted Lustria, Arstotzka, White Base and Tyrantia explaining that I had not realised Tyrantia was WPO, and would withdraw my unit from his territory immediately. I also offered to cede some tiles (I cannot recall exactly how many - I think it was 5? May have been a few more. Again, Tyrantia can probably fill you in here) as reparations.

Arstotzka accepted the apology and said he had asked Tyrantia and White Base not to attack me further. However, Tyrantia and White Base did not stop doing so. I withdrew all troops from the northern island and moved my southern troops to the far east of the mainland (near where United Kersia was claiming tiles) so as not to seem aggressive while the negotiations were ongoing.

However, Tyrantia and White Base refused to negotiate. I tried to contact them several times during this period, and kept my units withdrawn so there would be no conflict. They just occupied as many of my tiles as they could get their hands on. I also contacted Arstotzka several times during this period, and he said he had asked them to stop. They would not.

Eventually, I asked Arstotzka for an invite to the WPO. I knew that allies could not take one another's tiles, so this seemed the only way to stop them doing so. I was intending to stay part of the WPO until negotiations were properly concluded (i.e. White Base and Tyrantia had actually replied to me) and then return to my alliance, but they still did not message me. I must admit, it was somewhat amusing to see the Tyrantian armies still trying to take my tiles before he realised he could not, but it did not really make up for the frustration I felt at not being able to negotiate with these nations. Arstotzka said he would try to conduct proper negotiations, but he was a little busy at the time due to the outbreak of the vDip/CHAOM-WPO war (which started a phase after I joined the WPO, iirc).

Then Arstotzka was defeated, and so my only hope of negotiation with these two faded away, as he was my only contact bridge to them. I was a little fed up of this state of affairs, so I left the WPO, rejoined vDiplomacy, built some armour units and attacked them.

Needless to say, it did not go well for me. Both of them had had a large number of units waiting over my tiles and some of my supply bases, so as to take them as soon as I left the WPO. Also, I had been preparing for a peaceful resolution to the conflict, whereas they had been preparing for war for the time I had been trying to negotiate. I did not have the units to succeed, so they destroyed my units on the continent and kept taking my tiles.

Once I saw this was going very badly, I contacted both of them once again (I had also been in contact with Lustria over this time, but he said much the same as Arstotzka - he said he had asked them to withdraw but did not go any further, and they evidently did not listen to him). I figured that since both negotiation and miltary had failed, maybe bribery would work. I told them both I would be prepared to give them resources if they stopped attacking me.

Tyrantia (finally) replied, saying that he wanted Rubber and Food - I do not remember the exact amounts, but they were large. It occured to me that these would probably be used against me, as he evidently had no intention of stopping the conflict, so I tried to buy time by telling him I would send it when White Base responded and stopped attacking me. White Base never did, so they kept taking my land.

At this point, I gave up. I did not want to destroy the Pancake Treaty by bringing the rest of my alliance and CHAOM into this, so I let them take the rest of my land. Birgeria, noticing what was going on, started reinforcing the western-most edge of the island, keeping both his and United Kersia's tiles safe behind his lines. His actions were certainly understandable, given that White Base and Tyrantia had been completely unwilling to negotiate in my case and had shown they they had a substantial amount of military power. Also, it had been shown that both WPO leaders (Arstotzka and Lustria) whom I talked to were not willing to intervene in any matters regarding this continent by taking any action against nations that had directly disobeyed orders from the WPO (by not stopping attacking me, despite being asked to by both leaders).

Both Tyrantia and White Base came out of this initial conflict looking to me, and Birgeria, like expansionist nations who did not care for Diplomacy and who would not let any alliance agreements get in the way of them obtaining more land. They took one mistaken attack, and used it as an excuse to take over almost all the continent, refusing to negotiate all the while. Is it any surprise Birgeria put up defences?

After taking all of my tiles on 65 bar one (which Birgeria was defending), Tyrantia contacted me demanding 100 food, and stating that if I did not give him this he and White Base would continue to attack me on other continents. At this point I was fed up of their constant attacks on someone who was trying to negotiate, so I said no and warned them that if they did so I would take this to my alliance and we would attack continent 65. Tyrantia replied telling me not to use empty threats, and that he was trying to find a good solution to end the conflict. Lustria contacted me asking that all messages to Tyrantia or White Base from me should go through him, as he didn't want the situation to escalate, which I could respect but told me that this situation was not going to be resolved - I had discovered before that talking to Lustria about the situation was having no effect.


Then came the cause of the current crisis - the attack on Birgeria on continent 65.

Tyrantia's claim is that it was a 'pre-emptive strike' in defence of his realm, but given that Birgeria had only cavalry there and, as had been shown by Tyrantia's previous attack on me, Tyrantia had a large army with plenty of armours, ATs and Artillery. Birgeria's units would never have stood a chance if they'd have attacked, especially considering the WPO has a large number of nations that would come to the defence of Tyrantia and White Base if many units were deployed there by Birgeria. Tyrantia was never under any threat.

This was not a Pre-emptive strike. This was an attempt to gain the remainder of continent 65. I can guarantee you, if the CHAOM/vDiplomacy forces had not come to Birgeria's defence in too large numbers for Tyrantia and White Base to stand up to, they would have no problem taking all of Birgeria's and United Kersia's land on the continent. This attack was for expansionist purposes, nothing else.

I imagine they were either hoping to shield themselves using the WPO-CHAOM/vDip peace treaty (as they had before), hoping that extra forces would not come because nobody wanted to jeopardise this agreement, or that they underestimated the CHAOM/vDip forces when they tried to make their land grab. Whatever the case, they would not have agreed to a ceasefire if they had the greater military, despite the fact that Birgeria never transgressed against them.

This post is to illustrate that Tyrantia and White Base are entirely in the wrong here. The only other player who has done any wrongdoing in this situation is me, for attacking once with one unit (and possibly Arstotzka and Lustria for saying they would sort it out and not doing so, although that is probably more due to Tyrantia and White Base's stubbornness than due to Arstotzka and Lustria). Birgeria has done nothing wrong by constructing defences, and indeed it was justified given the situation. Anyone defending Tyrantia's and White Base's actions has been kept in the dark about what they have been doing. Therefore, I suggest the peace proposal is harsh on these two, if there is to be one. I would say at least they must go back to the number of tiles they would have been on if they had obeyed the resolution accepted by Arstotzka right after I attacked and offered to cede tiles to them (even this may be too much IMO, as they refused to negotiate and accept this beforehand). This would leave the two of them to split ~70 tiles between them, with the rest being divided up between CHAOM and vDiplomacy.

Only I have never in any way threatened you, you are not CaptainMeme who is a back stabber and can not be trusted. I have also not occupied any of your colonies nor have I show any intent of doing so - if you remember I ceased all of my offensive actions once CaptainMeme was forced off the continent. We shared a peaceful border for many turns. Then I noticed you carpeting the border with armies. I believe we can agree my concern was reasonable - especially since CaptainMeme joined your alliance. 

Firstly, I would like to apologize I have been on holiday for the past few days so have not been able to assist in the situation. I am now back from holiday and shall be reviewing the issue that is happening. I shall get back to you all within the hour after I have read all the posts and my messages. I will then give my verdict on the situation.

UNK posted this on the realpolitik-game.com/forum:

Thank you for assuming this leadership role in our cooperative dialogue, and I look forward to negotiating a peaceful path out of this chaotic destruction currently being imposed. 

Minister of Foreign Affairs, UNK

I am Natotropolis, a minor member of the vDiplomacy alliance.

Thank you Lustria and templars for your efforts to fix this situation. Nonetheless, I have a few problems with the suggested solution however.

Firstly, there appears to be no provision for CHAOM in the proposed land split. Since they have been just as involved in the situation as vDiplomacy and (from a military perpective) acheived much more I believe that they should also recieve land on the continent. If you believe the WPO has already given up to much land, I am sure vDiplomacy would be happy to give some of the land it will recieve in the settlement to United Kersia and Arcadia.

Socondly, I believe that the continent should be split about half and half between White Base/Tyrantia and vDiplomacy/CHAOM. I think that this was how it was prior to the initial outbreak of hostilities, (When captainMeme acidentially attacked a tyrantian unit).

Also, White Base appears to be inactive, whereas tryrantia is on the verge of a general strike. While vDiplomacy wants a swift end to the war, the destruction of these two nations was never our intention. Therefore, can I suggest to all vDiplomacy/CHAOM forces that we stop taking land for the moment and concerntrate on the destruction of White base and tryrantian units and Supply centers.

Finally, I would also like to thank CHAOM for their help in this conflict, have any memners of CHAOM been invited to this forum yet? We do not seem to have heard from them.