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Post by natotropolis on Apr 24, 2014 21:10:50 GMT
Can i just point out, contrary to what has been stated, that I niether require, nor have asked for land in this continent. I joined the war in defence of allies rather than for land gain. Therefore vDiplomacies land will only need to be divided between two nations.
I would also be inclined to agree that CaptainMemes proposal would be somewhat harsh on the WPO. Nevertheless, the previous treaty probably made less land CHAOMS then it should have and also risked making tyrantia into a monster state if White base stays inactive. Since vDiplomacy prensence was nearly wiped out on this continent by white base and tyrantia previously vDiplomacy is hesitant to give tyrantia the power to do so again.
Therefore as far as I see, there are 4 possibilies:
1: Restore the border to wherever it was before this conflict (maybe with tyrantia and white base losing some land) and give half of vDiplomacies land to CHAOM. No idea how practable this would be, as I have no idea exactly where the border was.
2: Give more of vDiplomacies land to CHAOM, as it is there is little reason for CHAOM to accept a split that gives them less land then the amount the have conquered.
3. If white base is inactive, keep birgeria's proposal, but give most of white bases land to anouther WPO member (such as lustria or templars) this would preserve WPOs land white not creating a monster state hostile to vDiplomacy.
4. Since we have all stoped fighting (and I can happily return home with my half sunk ships) why not wait to see if White base returns? There is no hurry to get this proposal agreed upon.
I quite like to hear peoples thoughts on any or all of these ideas.
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Post by Malakal on Apr 25, 2014 8:01:05 GMT
Return to status quo ante bellum would mean almost no lands given since only a slice of the south-west part of the continent didnt belong to WPO then.
I fully support natotropolis and his proposal, I dont want all the land to myself I merely want to ensure that both WhiteBase and WPO retains enough territory. I dont mind if other WPO nation comes there IF WhiteBase went inactive.
Also I couldnt help but notice a massive military buildup on the continent. I would like some explanation because it sure seems to me that CHOAM and vDiplomacy want to force the issue with military strength.
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Post by templars on Apr 25, 2014 8:53:08 GMT
I think this is quite a fair settlement.  [Click on image to enlarge it.] CHOAM have been given a larger share than in Birger's original offer to address Captain Meme's first point. vDiplomacy has stayed much the same as in Birger's original peace settlement offer,with slight readjustment of the border to a mountain checkpoint (which may as well be used since it's there), as Natropolis has since stated he would be willing to forego the land he had been allocated in order to make the settlement easier. WPO share is smaller than in the original Birger proposition, but larger than in Captain Meme's. I also agree with Natotropolis in that as the war has now ended, we can afford to give white base some time to return; he may just be on holiday, as it is Easter. If he doesn't return, any of the WPO leadership would be happy to take a share of the WPO territory to preserve the balance of power, and so we could help to de-escalate any problem which arose. |
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Post by lustria on Apr 25, 2014 9:09:10 GMT
I think this is quite a fair settlement. [Click on image to enlarge it.] CHOAM have been given a larger share than in Birger's original offer to address Captain Meme's first point. vDiplomacy has stayed much the same as in Birger's original peace settlement offer,with slight readjustment of the border to a mountain checkpoint (which may as well be used since it's there), as Natropolis has since stated he would be willing to forego the land he had been allocated in order to make the settlement easier. WPO share is smaller than in the original Birger proposition, but larger than in Captain Meme's. I also agree with Natotropolis in that as the war has now ended, we can afford to give white base some time to return; he may just be on holiday, as it is Easter. If he doesn't return, any of the WPO leadership would be happy to take a share of the WPO territory to preserve the balance of power, and so we could help to de-escalate any problem which arose. I agree this is a fair settlement and would be happy to agree to this is the other alliance leaders are. Also, regarding White Base I shall give him until Tuesday, if he does not prove to be active by then; we shall assume that he is inactive. Is everyone happy with this? |
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Post by Malakal on Apr 25, 2014 9:20:38 GMT
Cant we really do those defensive borders? It looks like 1939 Germany to me all over the place. Move the CHOAM border two tiles up into mountains and vDiplomacy one tile left and we have nice round borders.
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Post by templars on Apr 25, 2014 9:51:10 GMT
I'd be equally happy with malakal's suggestion, if the other alliances are happy with it.
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Post by CaptainMeme on Apr 25, 2014 10:05:13 GMT
Resolution suggestions thus far (ordered from most in favour of the WPO to least in favour of the WPO): Birgeria's Suggestion: vDiplomacy: 45 tiles CHAOM: 38 tiles WPO: 106 tiles Templar's Suggestion: vDiplomacy: 45 tiles CHAOM: 50 tiles WPO: 94 tiles CaptainMeme's Suggestion: vDiplomacy: 57 tiles CHAOM: 62 tiles WPO: 70 tiles Seeing as Natotropolis apparently does not want a share in the continent, this means each alliance's area will be split between 2 nations - Tyrantia/White Base (or a replacement for White Base) for the WPO, Birgeria/CaptainMeme for vDiplomacy, Arcadia/United Kersia for CHAOM. Therefore, it makes sense that the land should be split relatively evenly (pointing to my suggestion). Also, here was the initial situation, when the initial conflict started:  If Tyrantia and White Base had followed Arstotzka's orders and resolved the conflict then, I had agreed to cede them 5 tiles, so they would have been at 105 combined. Seeing as those are the two at fault here (for refusing to attempt to find a peaceful solution, even when I withdrew all forces and constantly attempted to negotiate with them), I will not accept any peace deal that leaves them with as many tiles as that, nor anywhere near that. There must be a punishment for this, and although Birgeria's treaty may seem like a punishment when you look at how many tiles they had after taking all of mine while I was trying to negotiate, it is actually rewarding them for pressing the attack on me. For this reason, I will not accept Birgeria's suggestion nor Templars. I would be willing to negotiate to somewhere between Templar's and my own, but the Templar's suggestion leaves Tyrantia and White Base with too many tiles. |
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Post by Malakal on Apr 25, 2014 10:52:36 GMT
Are you serious? This is not the status at the beginning of the conflict its two wars before. I strongly object to you lumping it all together.
Because if we lump it all together then the war started because you INVADED me and therefore you are at fault here.
On second thought lets go with your plan and lump it all together so its your actions that started the war.
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Post by CaptainMeme on Apr 25, 2014 11:07:30 GMT
Great. Am I going to have to go through this again? I guess quotes can say it all since I can't be bothered typing it out again. If you had wanted peace earlier you could easily have achieved it - I tried to get you to ever since my first attack - but you did not want to do so because you could get something out of attacking me and you knew that I would not be defending because I was trying to negotiate. Looking back, I should have checked whether Tyrantia was in the WPO, but I had figured if there was a change to the 2-way split plan I would have been contacted. I had assumed Tyrantia was not part of the WPO, as I had not been contacted about this. Needless to say, I was somewhat surprised when I was attacked by White Base the following turn. I was about to contact Arstotzka about this NAP-infraction (as vDiplomacy had a non-aggression pact with the WPO at this point) when I received a message from Lustria telling me I had broken the NAP and needed to explain my actions. I was surprised, but then found that Tyrantia had been WPO and I had indeed broken the NAP. I immediately contacted Lustria, Arstotzka, White Base and Tyrantia explaining that I had not realised Tyrantia was WPO, and would withdraw my unit from his territory immediately. I also offered to cede some tiles (I cannot recall exactly how many - I think it was 5? May have been a few more. Again, Tyrantia can probably fill you in here) as reparations. Arstotzka accepted the apology and said he had asked Tyrantia and White Base not to attack me further. However, Tyrantia and White Base did not stop doing so. I withdrew all troops from the northern island and moved my southern troops to the far east of the mainland (near where United Kersia was claiming tiles) so as not to seem aggressive while the negotiations were ongoing. However, Tyrantia and White Base refused to negotiate. I tried to contact them several times during this period, and kept my units withdrawn so there would be no conflict. They just occupied as many of my tiles as they could get their hands on. I also contacted Arstotzka several times during this period, and he said he had asked them to stop. They would not. Well that took a lot less time than an hour to decide since my verdict is very clear: As leader of WPO i hereby condemn the actions of White Base and Tyranitia. What they have done is against all that WPO and Pancakes stands for and shall not be tolerated.: It is very clear that I am not at fault here - if I had not attempted to negotiate or had continued to attack you I would be, but that is not the case. The situation leading up to this crisis started with my attack on your cavalry unit, but the cause of the crisis was your unwillingness to negotiate. |
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Post by CaptainMeme on Apr 25, 2014 11:20:41 GMT
Are you serious? This is not the status at the beginning of the conflict its two wars before. I strongly object to you lumping it all together. Just because they are separate events does not mean the punishment should be separate. This resolution is taking into account both of your wrongdoings - initially taking all my land while refusing to communicate, and then attacking Birgeria. Just because I did not press for retribution at the time does not mean it does not need to happen. Would you prefer that both were dealt with separately? That we arrange a split to resolve this conflict, and then split your land again to resolve the previous one? |
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Post by Malakal on Apr 25, 2014 11:47:53 GMT
Are you serious? This is not the status at the beginning of the conflict its two wars before. I strongly object to you lumping it all together. Just because they are separate events does not mean the punishment should be separate. This resolution is taking into account both of your wrongdoings - initially taking all my land while refusing to communicate, and then attacking Birgeria. Just because I did not press for retribution at the time does not mean it does not need to happen. Would you prefer that both were dealt with separately? That we arrange a split to resolve this conflict, and then split your land again to resolve the previous one? I said it before and I am saying ti again: I DON'T BELIEVE YOU DIDNT DECLARE WAR ON ME INTENTIONALLY it was a very OBVIOUS land grab on a new player. You SERIOUSLY want me to believe you, a very veteran player, didn't check who you are attacking? You always throw troops at unknown quality and quantity of enemies? You didnt communicate with me after the deed and even fought my armies. Therefore I don't believe you have any moral high ground in this matter and besides it was resolved. Taking it out now is simply abusing my current predicament. I attacked Birgeria and only Birgeria and for that I can be punished. In my war with you I had a valid casus belli. |
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Post by CaptainMeme on Apr 25, 2014 12:11:03 GMT
Firstly, I was not a veteran player. I'm country 280 (iirc) - this may sound like it was a lot earlier than you but there was a huge boom in players at this point, so the numbers went up fast. I appeared to be veteran because my GDP was high, because I grabbed a lot of land quickly from inactive players. I had not fought many people yet, and I did not know you could stack units so I went off the icons on the map when looking at armies, so I did not need to click on the unit to check. These are things I have learned to do since.
Secondly, I do not care if you don't believe it. It's the truth, and that is shown by the fact that I contacted your alliance leaders and both of you immediately afterwards to apologise and try to settle it by giving you land. Whether or not you take this as proof, you cannot deny that I attempted to negotiate and did not even attempt to defend myself until after Arstotzka left, and my last hope of a peaceful solution appeared to have gone (which was maybe 8 turns after you started attacking me?).
My attack on you was an attempted land grab - I have already said this in my initial post. Any attack on a new player is usually a land grab. The issue is that you were WPO, which I did not know.
The previous issue is not resolved, unless you consider yourself and White Base taking everything I had on the continent to be a just resolution to a situation caused by your lack of willingness to negotiate. That's not a resolution I accept, so I will press for my resolution here.
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Post by CaptainMeme on Apr 25, 2014 12:13:20 GMT
You didnt communicate with me after the deed and even fought my armies. I attempted to communicate with you many times after the initial attack, and I only fought you after Arstotzka left (a reasonable number of turns after you started taking my tiles). Unless by communicate you mean two-way communication - which you could truthfully claim we did not have, because you never bothered to respond - this is a downright lie. |
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Post by Malakal on Apr 25, 2014 12:28:57 GMT
All right then I consider myself under attack (since the initial conflict wasn't resolved and CaptainMeme admitted both his ill will and the fact he struck first)with all my actions justified (Birgeria is an ally of CaptainMme who was at the time of my attack in an aggressive war against me) and I am calling into this all of my allies since it is a defensive war in which I am being invaded by two alliances.
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Post by Malakal on Apr 25, 2014 12:42:50 GMT
Also I would like to inform all of you that CaptainMeme has just broken the ceasefire and continues his invasion therefore proving that all along I was in the right and this whole affair is a huge land grab on his part.
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